KC 2000 Forum, be civil or be deleted, your choice
DAMAGE TO STRINGYBARK CREEK RESERVE ???
Fri Aug 27 08:18:53 2004
Trevor Harbord
gday folks
I write in disappointment over damage that has apparently been caused to the Stringybark Creek camping reserve.
The area has apparently been ripped up by 4wds, also the Bullock creek area. this
doesn't surprise me.
I had previously emailed my concerns (28-04-04) that this may happen to Bill (Denheld) we would all know of Bill.
He would be as concerned about protecting the area as I am if not more.
I haven't been able to get through to relevant NRE person yet to get details.
I would suggest anyone visiting Stringybark should report suspicious activity to the ranger even take down rego nos if any sus characters about.
Maybe the webmaster will know soon when and if the Nov 7 bbq will still occur????
regards
regards Trevor Harbord
Fri Aug 27 16:05:24 2004
Dave White
Hello Trevor,
the area at SBC was fine when we left, there was no damage there apart from the theft of
the sign. (no evidence of 4WD's ripping the place up) There was no damage done before we arrived either. Tim and Bruce and Joe had been through a couple of days prior and had only mentioned the missing sign. We were there after them and all was well.
The Bullocks Creek area was also fine, the road through has been used by 4wd's
yes, however they have not strayed off the track.
The 2 huts site had 1 coke can and 1 beer bottle in a hole.(you cannot stop idiots leaving rubbish)
This is not a real drama. I recently made (tongue in cheek) comments to Tim re seeing his
tracks. I hope you are not referring to this in any way
as I was kidding as I had seen his footprints in the mud. I had also seen
tyre tracks, however there was no damage done as it was on the road and many
cars had driven this track. Are you saying you have seen evidence of damage more recently?
If my comments re the other guys visit has anything to do with this I appologize as I know that they are very respectful of the sites. I know for a fact that when Bruce and Tim have a day up there they leave nothing but memories and take nothing but photographs.
Having said all that, I as well as the others on this forum do share a concern for the future of the sites.
SBC is still as it has always been, you would not even know people had been there. Dave
Fri Aug 27 17:49:31 2004
Stringybark Creek.
Matt Shore
Hi all,
Who can honestly say they are suprised by any of this?
This is the problem with publicising the specific location of the area. We know from past experiences that people loot, vandalise and damage these types of areas. The most memorable story I heard was that the owner of the old house that Jim and Mrs Kelly lived in eventually detroyed what was left, because idiots were leaving the old-style pull ring tops from soft drink cans in his paddock, which were killing his cattle.
My issue with this is, why tell everybody where the location is? Of course it's going to get damaged! I would suggest to those who visit Stringybark Creek to get used to the site of Coke cans - there'll be plenty more, I'm sure.
How can you possibly 'protect' an area that has:
a) Had any significant material removed
b) Has been publicised all over the internet
c) Had other items (such as rocks that may be the remains of fireplaces) removed and then replaced, therefore destroying any ability for the area to be properly researched by archeologists?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't have the oppurtunity to visit the site, but at what price? For the vast majority of the morons who are likely to leave rubbish lying around and remove material from the site, don't you think it would have been better for them to simply visit the reserve instead?
I think we'll look back on all of this and wish that it had been kept quiet...
Matt Shore.
Fri Aug 27 20:04:04 2004
camping ground is distroyed
KC2000
Its the camping ground as previously reported, that has been ripped to shreads by 4wd's not the reserve .
just about the whole area is grassless, and mud, the head ranger has closed the camping ground by placing log barriers across the track, with keep out signs.
I am trying to negotiate with him to see if he will reopen the camping ground for the BBq on the 7th of november, as this is the best place to hold it, it has acre's of parking, shade and toilet, hopefully the grass will grow back, I am more than annoyed by this destruction, and the head ranger is looking for heads to chop.
KC2000
Sat Aug 28 07:04:40 2004
Tim
Hey all, just thought I would clarify this whole situation with everybody out there.
Bill & myself were back in the Stringy/ German/ Kelly creeks area today on further research to Sgt Kennedy. The situation is, the camping area is now closed, gate errected and sign posted until Oct 25. New grass has been sown over the complete area and it was not only 4wds in there that ripped it up, normal cars were driven around in there as well as motorbikes. The bbq can still go ahead, there are no problems with that as we spoke to Dave the DNRE ranger today for over 1 hour. The notice board at Stringy will be again replaced at cost,it was quite sad today to see people travel all that way to look at a tree and not much else. The huts fireplace mesh will be cammed up, the track into Kellys creek will be blocked for good, again it is not Kelly fans fault. The area is very popular with both deer & pig shooters, the road being a public track allows them access to creeks and water, it is not illegal for them to shoot in there, the DNRE know who the people are and are happy for them to shoot the feral pigs in the area.
Again let me state.........the DNRE are doing a great job in the area, they know who's been good and who's been naughty They have no problems with the majority of Kelly fans who make the trip, most leave only footprints and not much else, it is a public area and all Austalian's have a right to see it for themselves, how much is up to the individual. It is not hidden, any book will get you in the ball park inc Ian's who clearly states the wrong position of the tree.
A little annoyed.
Tim.
Sat Aug 28 09:33:43 2004
trevor harbord
gday Tim,
Ive mentioned my thoughts at the state of the SBC CAMP GROUND based on the NRE having closed it, and not on any comments posted on this website.
it must be in a sorry way if they have gone to these lengths.
Tim what do you mean "Ians wrong position of Kelly tree"??
Sat Aug 28 17:47:59 2004
Tim
Hey Trev, thanks for that, I just get a little peeved at people blaming Kelly fans who travel up there and are not respecting the place. After a good chat to the DNRE it seems that the area is not only popular with us but shooters, motorbikes, 4wd's, drug crops and the usual people who just love to go bush. Apart from the crops, the area is a state forest in which all the activites above can be legally carried out. Like I said apart from a few cans and a bit of rubbish, the Kelly reserve is in pretty good nick, try and travel anywhere in Australia like we have and find a picnic area that does not contain rubbish left behind.......Craig's Hut is a classic example !!!!!!!!
If you read Ian Jones " SHORT LIFE "page 177 has a picture of the current Kelly tree and the caption reads........" It is on the wrong side of the creek, several hundred meters from the actual location " Would you be dissapointed having travelled around 3/4 hrs to get there, seeing the tree and then finding out that it is totally not even close to the actual shooting site. Listen to people's comments up there when they find out they have been ripped off ! They are not happy about it, again if you do the research and you want to locate the area.......you will.
Tim.
Sun Aug 29 02:56:23 2004
trevor harbord
gday Tim,
I was aware Jonesy had long made claim the shooting location was across and up river several hundred metres, I just though you were saying he was wrong, I must have taken you wrong.
Trevor
Mon Aug 30 03:09:45 2004
Blame it on the Kellys
Bill Denheld
Regarding Matt's post Friday 27 Aug 2004.
Dear Matt, Just because a local idiot ‘police’ hater decides to deface a memorial, wreck the notice board while another bunch of morons ruin the Camping ground, how can this be related to stories on the internet ?
To date there has been no degradation of the Kelly sites. I receive many Emails from grateful Kelly trippers who come from all over Australia. Most visitors to Stringybark are like us - they are keen Kelly enthusiasts who want to see for themselves.
Your posting indicates a persistent gripe revolving around my Twohuts stories. Why would this be so? You make mention of " removal of significant materials", materials you previously stated " have extremely questionable relevance to the Kelly story ". Why are you concerned about these items when previously you say are not important? Now suddenly they have become significant?
It would certainly be remarkable if the Twohuts website stories are as you suggest the reason for this terrible degradation you indicate is happening at the creeks. If the Twohuts stories are having any effect, it is only good and positive because people can learn and understand the real story of the place. Morons don’t know how to turn on a computer.
Yes there is real interest in Stringybark Creek.
Interest kindled by G.W Hall, J.J.Kenneally, Max Brown, Robert Drew, Ian Jones, and Keith McMenomy, Peter Carey's international, all great Kelly books, not to mention reprints of all of the above. There have been three recent TV documentaries, an International Kelly film release. Unabated newspaper stories on Ned and articles, photo auction, art, music CD, DVD’s and videos, TV mini series, Kelly letters and documents being discovered, Internet Archive of Public records, more than 12 Kelly website.coms. Kellyana printed works identifying almost 800 publications. Then there will be the new planed Ned Kelly touring route shared by 7 city municipalities up North, all perpetuating a slice of the Kelly story. Not to mention commercial 'Ned the Exhibitions’ in Melbourne. Followed by the State Library of Vic. Kelly exhibition and the current Outlawed Exhibition. Yes there is a lot of interest in all things Kelly. Stringybark is the start of the story, a story that has been neglected and not been fully told, and its the place where people will want to come to. - Better get used to it.
Despite all this, Stringybark is still pristine. I was there last weekend and the police camp looks no different than when I first went in there three decades ago. The reason nothing has changed is there is nothing to change. However, as previously posted in this forum 'Heritage Nomination' and protection for the Creeks, what was asked for are positive ideas and input. How may bus loads and private visitor foot prints can be managed, that’s the question? No problem with the few who visit the site through the internet. I would be pleased to have a proper forum discussion with you and all readers on how ever increases in Kelly traffic could be managed at the sites. That’s what the D.SE want to know.
Bill
Mon Aug 30 20:08:36 2004
Blame it on who??
Matt Shore
Bill, Let me firstly say to all the Kelly enthusiasts (particularly Tim, Bruce and Trevor)that I am not having a go at any of them, but I am looking at the bigger picture here. We, who respect the Kelly story, should be able to visit significant sites, but we all need to consider at what price should the detailed publication of these sensitive sites be made public.
Obviously, Stringybark Creek is very different to the Siege site at Glenrowan, for example. Apart from the obvious environmental changes over the years, you could say that the area is basically how it was in 1878 - that is why I agree that it should be protected somehow.
I have made my points, and I have made them strongly. You will remember that I responded to a previous posting that called for protection of the sites up at Stringybark Creek. I actually laughed out aloud, and I had to vent my utter disbelief at what I was reading.
My 'persistent gripe' is that so much stuff that needs protecting has already been removed. I did say that a lot of it would have extremely shakey links to the Kellys. I also said that it was incredible that protection was discussed AFTER the sites had had a thorough going over with a metal detector. Wouldn't it have been more ethical and responsible to have obtained protection for the sites, and THEN had them examined by trained professionals, before other people had the opportunity to visit the sites, and also take what they wanted? Whether it is Kelly-related material or not, it should be treated with due sensitivity. That has not happened.
How is this different to people taking stuff from the Kelly homestead site, for example? Over the years, the homestead site has been picked clean like a cold chicken by people NEEDING to touch something that had a connection with the Kellys. Well, I don't believe it is any different.
I gather that you have collected the material yourself. I base this assumption on the photographs on your website. But, where is the stuff now? Is it in the posession of the Mansfield Historical Society? Is it being protected, or sitting on a shelf somewhere?
Thank-you for reminding me Bill,of the authors, etc who have created interest in Ned and Stringybark Creek over the years. I was unaware that a film had been made on Ned. Is it available on DVD? lol.
For the record, the 'commercial Ned The Exhibition in Melbourne' was able to donate $20,000.00 to the Variety Club. That money was used to build a special swing for wheelchair-bound kids in the Traralgon area.
Unfortunately, I do believe that your two huts site will be damaged in the coming years. Regardless of whether it is protected or not, people will trample the area, and leave Coke cans and God knows what else up there. I think that most people would agree with that. Perhaps that is why Ian Jones didn't publish specific details when he found the Stringybark Creek site years ago.
Your website is incredibly well researched and presented. It is obvious that people are using your material to find the sites. But, if you can't see how that would contribute to the eventual damage of these sites, well, I give up!
I strongly believe that the best protection for the sites that are sensitive is to keep their locations quiet. Pretty simple.
I would suggest to you that a lot of morons do know how to turn on a computer, and that is what concerns me.
I believe that the material collected should be placed in the hands of the Mansfield Historical Society, so it can be displayed as soon as possible.
I normally avoid cliches like the plague, but I do believe that a Pandora's box has been opened with all this. I'm glad that I have had no part in it. I don't want my eyes scratched out! lol
Matt.
DAMAGE TO STRINGYBARK CREEK RESERVE ???
Tue Aug 31 04:14:54 2004
trevor harbord
gday all,
Wow!!!!!!!!
98 views of the thread I started and not that many folks going at it!!
The damage (word has definetely hit a nerve or 3).
Its always the 1% that can spoil it for everyone, I first had reservations about certain details of Stringybark Creek area being reported to the masses over the internet, but now feel should I and other likeminded Kellyana buffs miss out due to those 1%?????
I think not!!!!
"One mans preservation is anothers desecration"
"Some are in it for the moula some for the thrill"
"One mans right is anothers wrong"
"Some share their knowledge unselfishly, others hold sell it for the 6:30 timeslot"
"Some are knockers of any ideas not theirs"
I gather you would get my drift.
lastly in Bills Ds defence I doubt that when he was innocently and legally detecting back in the 80s around Stringybark (as many others have in the 1980s ) he had heritage listings in his sites.
cheers for now
Wed Sep 1 06:10:20 2004
Why would this be so?
Bill Denheld
Dear Matt, and readers,
We who respect the Kelly story should be able to visit these sites. To not make available new information to all Kelly fans as you suggest constitutes a ‘privileged club’ in the know.
Any reader of the ‘Two huts website‘ can work out where these special places are, there are no maps to guide the visitor and no one needs permission to go there.
I consider myself a professional in what ever I do. How do you know the initial investigation at the 'twohuts' site was not done professionally? You were not there. I can tell you permission was obtained to do exploration and removal of easily detectable items to be kept for safe keeping and I consider myself the guardian. I have recorded location of all items, photographed the fireplaces before, during and after.
I must mention, on discovering the importance of the fireplaces I contacted Ian Jones. He was keen to see them for himself. He was quite surprised about the find and I asked him if he or anyone had ever found a hut site at the top end of S/bark before. He said not. He said he would ring me within a day or so to arrange a visit to the site. His phone call never came. I rang three times over a four week period. Why would this be so?
I contacted local Mansfield historian Sheila Hutchinson ( a lovely lady) who actually lived round the corner from S/bark Ck as a young girl. She assured me, she and here neighbour Charlie Engelke (who as a young man) lived at the top of Stringybark Ck road, they would have known of every structure that had stood in the area, they grew up there. They can pin point where ‘hermits’ lived in the bush and where original shacks of the earliest settlers stood, but neither had seen these fireplaces of huts at this location – (near the police camp), yet Charlie had walked up and down Stringybark Ck road everyday in his youth. He is now ageing and lives in WA. ( I can post some of his letters if you are interested)
With a previous story of my experiences at Kellys Creek in 1985, ‘The Bullets of Kellys Creek’ posted on Ironoutlaw.com. I set to it to share my latest Stringybark Ck story with all its readers. I submitted an almost finished draft to webmaster Brad Webb who said he could put it on the internet in a few days. A week later I sent him the entire layout, text and pictures for ‘The two Huts at Stringybark Creek’. I waited, and I waited. After more than two weeks I questioned him the delay, OK, everone is busy, delays can happen. After 5 weeks I realised it was not going to happen on Ironoutlaw.com. Why would this be so?
In the end I had to create my own website and within 2 days it was up and running.
Some months later with the help of Dave White, Bruce Johnson, Sheila and Joe Hutchinson we finished the initial detecting phase. While the bulk of the items are in my care, Dave is looking after some as well. Everything together would make an interesting display. All that is needed is a suitable public venue.
The above mentioned detection phase was well documented by Dave who wrote a paper on the work. It was extremely well written and posted on Ironoutlaw.com in section ‘White Stuff’ but recently his articles have been removed from that website.Why would this be so?
When Ian Jones writes in his latest edition A short life, page 385 “ Despite an extremely misleading report in The Age, 10.2.2003, ‘ New Ned Kelly find leaves shooting theory up the creek’ the discovery of two fireplaces nearby, on the western bank of the creek, does nothing to refute my identification of the site, and in fact throws no new light on the subject. Numerous huts were built in the vicinity, before and after 1878. Like some other recent discoveries this one seems more concerned with publicity than historical insight.”?
Why would this be so ?
Why would he write this if he acknowledged to me personally and in his chapter in a Council of Adult Education publication ‘Ned Kelly Seminar Papers 1993’ - there was a need to find the remains of a hut near the police camp to confirm the area he had marked out ?. And when some ten years later the remains of two huts are found, when questioned about the find on an ABC 3LO morning radio program with Jon Faine, Ian proclaimed the ‘huts‘ find as “Codswallop”. Why would this be so?
I admit the Age writer used a bit of poetic licence in a slightly misleading headline, but The Age story actually tells how the fireplaces’ find confirm Ian’s police camp location. There is no doubt Ian identified the correct spot for the police camp and the twohuts site prove it.
To compare the removal of stuff from a Kelly homestead (on private property) – to that of metal detection (on crown land) is quite different, for, to leave those ‘potentially historic’ detectable items in the ground for other independent enthusiasts to pick up later could have seen all the items scattered into private cardboard boxes never to be seen again. We are talking about stuff found in and around what is known as ‘the shingle hut’ that Ned and Joe wrote about in the Jerilderie letter. It was recorded that ‘the boys actually worked Stringybark Creek for gold and while there, I ask you where would they have camped? at the ‘shingle hut for sure. So it is highly probable the items found there had been familiar to them if not discarded by them. ( this is pure conjecture but probable )
About a year later Sheila and Joe, Dave, Bruce and myself were back just prior to mesh being placed over the rocks by D.SE. (Mesh I offered to pay for). The mesh would seal the rocks in. I decided to detect under the fireplace stones as this had not been done at all awaiting that archaeological dig. However during this time a couple of stones had disappeared which was very disappointing since they were taken by those ‘untrustworthy Kelly fans’. Matt your right, they can’t leave things as they are. But be that as it may, we are stuck with that mentality. There is little that can be done to change that. I’ll be the first to admit.
I am sure the ‘Shingle hut’ site will get damaged. It will get trampled, wrecked and the bush may get burnt beyond recognition, but the place will still be there. There will also be rubbish left behind that you Matt can collect like I do when there. You may even run more commercial bus tours to the spot, no problem with that. With your influential capacity you could even arrange proper tourist signage to direct traffic to the Key spots like the ‘police camp’, the ‘shingle hut site, the original Kelly tree site, the site of Sergeant Kennedy’s last resting place at German Creek, Kellys Creek hut site, the fortified hut site of the Kellys, site of the Kelly target trees, the whisky still location, horse paddocks and lots more.
Previous to this, on advice from the D.SE historian Mr. Daniel Catrice an archaeological dig is to take place not just for the hut sites but the police camp as well. (but when? maybe you can throw your efforts behind that too). Mesh has be placed over the rocks, this may stop immediate pilfering of the rocks. If however, in future, should the mesh be cut and rocks do go missing the D.SE will remove all those rocks to a safe place,- leaving nothing at all.
The point of all this is, you can’t save a place from a ‘collective’ interest. (collective meaning a whole big group of enthusiasts). The twohuts website is no more revealing than Ian Jones’s book as to the location of the Police camp. His books have far more readers than my Twohuts website. In Keith McMenony’s book there is an 1884 map which marks the spot. If it was so important for these places to remain secret and out of harms way, then no author should have written the story. And Matt, you would have nothing to gripe about.
You talk about the sites being ‘sensitive’ and should be kept quiet ? Quiet and sensitive to what?? There is nothing there, only in our heads can we imagine what took place there. It is hallowed ground. If the place was so important why haven’t the police departments proclaimed the site as such. (In my opinion the Memorial stone should be moved to the right spot. It would make more sense to move it away from the Kelly tree). It was only put there because of the picnic ground.
One last thing, all the items from the huts have been offered for display to the Mansfield Historical Society long ago. Unless MHS get a suitable display place they have said there is no room for a collection of this type. Also you will remember that all the items from the ‘Shingle Hut’ were offered to you for ‘ Ned the Exhibition’ - but you turned it down ?????
Bill
Wed Sep 1 06:58:10 2004
Lola Rowe.
These are thoughts only - from an interested reader of your forum, thank goodness I am not related to one of the Policeman shot on the site near the Creek at Stringybark, I would feel it was a rather Sacred area, not an area, to trample over and make a picnic area of . A gettogether of all these Kelly Buffs could be had at maybe Tolmie, Greta, camping ground or some such, but to me this is a sensitive area, where the story that you are all so interested in began.
Yes Bill you did a great job, with your 2 Hut sites, but as I did say to you I fear, what will happen in that area in 10 years or so. !!!
Lola
Wed Sep 1 19:47:22 2004
My two-bobs!
Nicole Jones
Hello All,
Well I wasn't going to put my two bobs in but after some choice comments I must!
Firstly Bill, and this is only my opinion - not a gripe - I don't think there is a privileged club at all as you make out. I have always found most in the Kelly world to be helpful and open with any information. People like Bruce, Tim, Dave, Matt, Ian and yourself included have always welcomed discussion and ideas exchange and have been available to me anytime to answer my questions - even the silly ones! This forum is a great example of the openess of those in the Kelly world.
I am a little confused at why you think that the forum is a place to discuss why others have not uploaded your material or rung you back - isn't that something you should discuss with them personally? Have you told these people that you are discussing personal conversations you had with them on the net and therefore giving them the right of reply?
I agree that we should be able to visit these sites. I don't think that that is in dispute. I think the issue is that when divulging SPECIFIC information on sites that are environmentally senstive we all need to act responsibly. If it wasn't for your specific directions - posted on the noticeboard at Stringybark Creek - I would not have found the site - and had the opportunity to "trample" on it. This does not mean that the site itself should be kept secret -only divulged to those who know the secret handshake - but as Bruce puts it at the start of this site the challenge is for us to find them. Bruce doesn't give specifics - he knows that there is a moral responsibility in doing that!
By your own admission, Bill you say there is "nothing there" and that "if the place was so important why haven't the police departments proclaimed the site as such" but as Lola pointed out for the descendents of those killed there it is sacred ground and is therefore sensitive. You ask for protection in one breath and say there is nothing there in another - isn't that a contradiction?
I wholeheartedly agree that it needs to be protected and also that at the same time it needs to be accessible. I commend your enthusiasm for the site, your fantastic research and agree that it is better to have the items in one safe place than spread all over the joint. I don't think your professionalism or your integrity is at question Bill - you obviously want the best for the site but maybe your passion for sharing your knowledge specifically has a greater price than you realise. I want my children to visit the site in years to come and have some sense of what it was really like.
Thanks,
Nicole xo
Thu Sep 2 00:30:31 2004
Matt Shore
Hello again Bill and everybody,
I hope this will be the last item I will post on this subject, as it seems to be going on and on.
Bill, any comments I have made have not been in malice or because I do not respect your work. I have visited your site many many times over the last year or so, and as I said before, your work is amazing.
It is innaccurate to claim that there is a boys' club mentality with new information, etc when it comes to Ned. That is simply not true. Bill will acknowledge that he himself has been invited to, and attended, a couple of meetings that were organised during the last exhibition. To the best of my knowledge, I have always been open with whatever I have had access to. Not many people can claim that - even some people very close to the story don't share stuff amongst themselves - sad, but true.The only thing I have kept close to my chest is the story of the Jim Kelly tunnel. Although I have briefly shared the story (with permission), I have not taken anybody else up there because it shouldn't be turned into a tourist attraction (apart from the fact that it is incredibly remote and dangerous). I would like to share photos, video footage, etc of the tunnel, but I really don't want to be seen to be 'dangling the carrot' - I know how frustrating that can be. Perhaps readers can let me know if they would like to see the material, and I'd be more than happy to share the material.
Bill, I do not think that this forum is an appropriate place to talk about those who haven't returned your telephone calls, for whatever reason. I can't speak on behalf of Ian, Dave or those at Ironoutlaw. Your question 'why would this be so?' indicates that you believe there is a conspiracy theory happening here, or that the boys' club is against you. I would encourage you to follow this up with the people you have mentioned. It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
It is indeed true that I was interested in putting some of your Shingle Hut/Bullets of Kelly's Creek material on display at the last exhibition. As anybody who visited both exhibitions would know, all the text (labels, introduction panels, etc) was kept very brief, for good reason. The story is confusing enough for 'first timers' to follow.
I recall you sending me lots of information, which I had to edit down to place with the display. I thought it best to display the items under the heading 'ARE THEY KELLY RELICS?', but you weren't happy with that. You also were not happy that I HAD to edit down your text considerably to fit in the display. So, after becoming very frustrated with what was happening, I politely declined your offer to display the items. I just didn't have the time to worry about it.
It is unfair that I am made out to have a 'gripe', simply because I disagree with how the situation has been handled up there. As always, I value Lola's input into this forum, and I thank her for also raising an important question - what will the site be like in ten years from now? You have mentioned that some stones from the fireplaces have already disappeared. We have to acknowledge that those fireplace stones have been there for close to 130 years - but now the pilfering has begun.
I agree that technically it is more appropriate to have the memorial on the actual site of the shootings, but what really for? Isn't it more important to keep the site as untouched as possible for future generations? Or is it more important to turn it into a barbecque area that will be trampled, and , to some extent, 'developed'? As Lola has said, three police members died up there, and I believe that their descendants would appreciate a beautiful, quiet and peaceful area to visit and pay their respects.
I will conclude by saying that I am happy that you have agreed on my main point. You say 'I am sure the Shingle Hut site will get damaged.It will get trampled, wrecked and the bush may get burnt beyond recognition'. It simply isn't good enough to resign ourselves to the fact that we now need to become garbage collectors when we are up there.
And now, here's Moira....!!
Matt Shore.
Thu Sep 2 01:24:12 2004
Kelly sites desecration
Paul O
Bill,
I totally agree with Matt,
These places have been totally plundered and raped by many over the years and its disgusting that it seems to be getting out of hand.
I also agree that recent publicity has been a huge contributing factor.
It really amazes me why you want some relatives to devulge information for example the location where the Armour was made then these sites would suffer the same fate.
Some recent postings on this forum make me want to puke.
Paul O'Keefe
Thu Sep 2 07:25:46 2004
Matt 'GMA' Shore
Hi Trevor,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I saw a couple of 'commercial' references on the forum, and thought I was being accused of something!
Your response noted with thanks.
Matt
The Bert Newton look-alike (is it any wonder I'm paranoid??) lol!
Thu Sep 2 17:20:03 2004
Lola Rowe
Bill, is that correct, that some stones, that make up the fire places have been pilfered already !!!!! I could shed a tear if that is correct, as they are so meaningful, and placed there with such care to warm & keep somebody safe & warm, so many years ago, this is my worry, they will not be around for the next generation, as so many other areas are not , all through human avarice. (meaning - greed or gain, eager desire to keep.) You will know the house at Beveridge, which has 10 ft. high fence surrounding it, is regularly scaled and pillaged, as my Brother lives in the area and does know the owners, they do have a great problem .
Fri Sep 3 07:01:36 2004
Walking Stones
Bill Denheld
Dear Lola,
Yes unfortunately some stones went missing from the top of one of the fireplaces. At the May 2003 meeting to which all parties were invited (even yourself if you had been around). At the meeting It had been suggested to cover the fireplaces with mesh to protect the rocks till an archaeological dig could take place. ( David Hurley the ranger made the suggestion) That's why, when a year later, still waiting for that dig, I was angry when some rocks went missing.
I told David Hurley I would pay for the mesh and put it on myself if I had to. A week later he rang to say they had ordered the mesh and I should come up. Just prior , I organised a cleanup and final metal detect to get those detectable objects that I knew were still there, but had hesitated to do the detection as I did not want to disturb the rocks for the archaeologists. I knew many rocks would have to be turned disturbing the arrangement so to speak, but in the end everything went back almost as original. Apart from lots of rusty old iron nails there was a hand made billy can lid, more wire and a money purse frame. These items will be shown on Two huts when I get a chance.
About the missing stones, we can be sure the stones were taken by a Kelly fan, someone we may will know ???
Someone like the person who took that piece off the Target tree log at Kellys Creek???
OK,OK, you will say it's all because of Bill's Twohuts website. Well, let me tell you that, that bit of target tree went missing before I had mentioned the log on the website. So to assume it was pinched by a reader of twohuts, think again. Locals also knew about that log and many hundreds have been shown it over the past 20 odd years.
Lola, and readers, the question is, WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THE PILFERING ? Here are 5 choices to consider.
Remember we can't un discover the fireplaces. Can't turn the clock back.
1. Get some money together to build a high sharp pointed wrought iron fence around the site like a cage.
2. Waite to see if more stones go missing, then remove them all for safe keeping?
3. Leave it as it is and let them take the lot and don't worry about it.
4. Publicise the originals are already replaced with dummies.
5. Take all the stones NOW and replace them with dummies. At least we will have the original stones. That way all that is required is periodical replacement of stones if they go missing too. I have detailed maps and pictures of every stone and its relationship to one another for a reconstruction.
I would probably opt for the later as, has been done with the target tree removal ( because they won't leave things alone.) Sad as it is, this is the awful truth.
Nicole Jones expresses an interesting idea to lock these sites up now so her children can experience the places later. That is not an answer because her children and their children will want to go there too and so on. We cannot deny this generation access so the next can. She has been there, ,just as her children will. The time is now, something needs to be done now.
Do you know what the biggest danger is? An exploration outfit looking for minerals and mining. At present there is no protection against that. Anyone could apply for a mining tenement on Monday morning. Without that Heritage blanket cover, the place is available. David Hurley of the D.SE told me that just last week.( I knew that because I have applied for mining leases myself). He also said he was pleased it had been nominated because the D.SE were not able to do it. Yet I was waiting for them to do it. The nomination had to come from outside Government bodies.
What is needed now is some support from all of you. How about getting onto Heritage Victoria to hurry the nomination along. Tell them the place needs immediate protection. With heritage listing, at least Government funding can be applied for. The D.SE have no money at all. It is appalling there is plenty of effort put in for tourism and the Ned Kelly Tourist Route that will attract hundreds of thousands of tourist yet nothing is planned to protect the very places from a miner or his bulldozer. Its up to us to do something now, not when our kids are grownup.
Bill
[3]DAMAGE TO STRINGYBARK CREEK RESERVE ???
Fri Sep 3 08:49:06 2004
Me again!
Nicole Jones
Dear Bill,
Obviously you did not read my post properly or you would have seen that I did NOT suggest to "lock up the site" but look at a way of protecting it NOW so that my children can see it for the future! I stated that the site needs to be accessible to all of us. I think that the site is there not only for this generation but others to come. When looking at protecting it we need to consider a way that will keep the integrity of the site - not just for those passionate about it now - but for those who's passion is yet to grow! Isn't that the responsible thing to do? Historically, we have lost too many significant sites to "well-meaning people".
As I wrote in my post Bill, I wholeheartedly agree that the site needs to be protected but stripping it of historical material and then putting up a plaque or dummy artefacts ain't gonna do! Obviously those that are vandalising do not really care for the significance of the site - so whether real or fake they will still continue to destroy. Publicising that the artefacts have been removed is not going to make one scrap of difference to a bunch of drunken louts on a deer hunting weekend! As you've said "we can't undiscover the fireplaces" . So what do we do? Do we leave things as they are and clean up every now and then? Do we mark the site and draw more significance and attention to it? As it stands now - unmarked and hard to find - only those who are really passionate about Ned will take the time and effort to find the ACTUAL site. I can just see those drunken yobbo's sitting in their car looking at Keith McMenomy's under torchlight - not! Mark it and bingo! -any yobbo can trample it! Obviously, there will always be that yobbo element and you can't protect it from every idiot hell bent on damaging it. But what do we do?
I totally agree with the heritage listing Bill - and good on you for nominating it. I wonder how it will go with site already being disturbed? As you said in your post you disturbed the arrangement of the rocks to take the stuff underneath. In fact, I was there when you did this clean up. Does that affect the listing in anyway? I think it is a great suggestion to show our support for the nomination - what about a petition? Maybe at places along the touring route? What about looking at ways other sites have been protected and the effectiveness of that protection?
My point Bill is that we have to consider the effects of how we protect it not only NOW but in the future as well. If others had put in some forethought we may have had the bank still standing at Euroa and that horrible overpass at Glenrowan would not have been built. We all have opportunity, through our input, to preserve a site and keep its remaining integrity. i just hope we do the right thing!
Thanks!
Nicole xo
Sat Sep 4 17:51:33 2004
Tim
Hey gang, It seems this post just keeps going around and around like a giant ferris wheel. All the points which are being brought up are all good and relevent, they just keep bouncing from one thread to the next with no solution being found. May I humbly suggest a meeting with all interested parties where we can sit down together and have a kangaroo court in which a soloution can be found and agreed on before it is all to late. I know some may not be happy with this but talking to all parties concerned a meeting could be definitely arranged and hopefully a compromise reached and then acted on. The people who have appeared in this thread are some of the most respected Kelly " people " out there, if you could all put your heads together, I am sure that only the best result can be achieved on this delicate issue.
Tim.
Sun Sep 5 08:19:30 2004
Trevor Harbord
Hi Folks,
gday Tim
I read your last response And I see where your coming from.
My initial complaint that started this thread was about the 4wds tearing up the area, maybe not kelly buffs
could be anyone.( I have sidetracked myself from original thought of Ceremony to Commemorate gang.)
The moron in some people really come out when they are in the wilds.
For instance Last time for me up at Stringybark I sat at the picnic table munching a tuna sanwich when a rambo wannabe passed 15 feet from me with an Im sure loaded shotgun ready to shoot the first thing that moved.Luckily I remained rigid... I later heard a few shots
I had children nearby. I think in all the free space in Victoria did he need to scout a picnic area to game hunt?
anyway getting back on track................
The input re removal of chimney stones and Kelly log pieces is a whole kettle of fish and more serious.
To be honest I am stumped on what can be done to stop this type of thing going on.
The isolation of The stringybark creek area is a large part of its beauty and magic, and also its weakness as far as hoons pilfering.
Anything of any value be even it cages protecting The chimney, or whatever will be removed at somestage by a nimble fingered fellow member of the public.
Electric fences, regular ranger attendance ect is about all can guarantee posterity of what were talking about and that needs powerful influence and big $$$. you listening Rudolph???
Removing relics from their original site to me is a tragedy their relevance diminishes in my eyes.
ie The Chimneys are relevant because some of us believe they are part of the huts Ned kelly himself referred to.
Their relevance is due to being close to the police camp,this potentially identifying the shootout site.
Removing them from their home for over 125 years would remove another direct link with our past.
Was just reading today about the pilfering/exploitation of anything kelly going back.
It did not take an Internet website for The doctor attending Ned 1880 to steal his Avenel sash, or the Police To souvenier Some of the gangs armour, or scoop up Ned kellys bloodied soil near the spot he fell in Glenrowan.
The scavengers ( Souvenierers) have always been out there.
Anyway folks enough hot air for now.
Regards
Trevor Harbord